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staatsy



Joined: 14 Mar 2008
Posts: 348
Location: Poky

PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So this came up at league tonight: one of my throws ended up in a tree, probably less than 2m above the playing surface. I ended up playing from inside the tree, but I think there's a rule that says I could have taken my lie from directly behind the tree:

803.08 Disc Above
The Playing Surface

A. If a disc comes to rest above the
playing surface in a tree or other obstacle
on the course, its lie shall be marked on
the playing surface directly below it. If
the point directly below the disc above
the playing surface is an out-of-bounds
area, the disc shall be declared out-ofbounds
and marked and penalized in
accordance with 803.09. If the playing
surface directly below the disc is inside a
tree or other solid obstacle, the lie shall
be marked on the line of play immediately
behind the tree or other solid obstacle.

The director may designate a one throw
penalty for discs that come to rest two
meters or higher above the playing
surface. The director may declare the two
meter rule to be in effect for the entire
course, or just for individual obstacles.


I'm honestly not sure if it would have helped or hurt me, as I just played an "out" shot anyway (due to the crazy wind).

Could be a good rule to know, though. Did I interpret it correctly?


Eric
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mook



Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 798

PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats interesting how they word that because I have never ever seen anyone take relief when their disc is up in a tree without a penalty. It has always been "play directly below your disc". I have mostly found the rules consistent in the fact that if you threw it there its your own fault and you must play it where it lies or directly below where it lies. If you want relief, you must take a penalty.

But it would be nice to talk to someone who knew exactly what this rule meant because as its stated, it makes it sound like you can take relief without a penalty.

Anyone?
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Wazowski08



Joined: 16 Nov 2007
Posts: 621

PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe the rule is referencing a lie being physically inside the tree, meaning the trunk of the tree is obstructing the lie, such that a marker may not be placed properly. The important phrase in the rule is, I believe, "or other SOLID obstacle." If your disc were to land in a trash can, you would not be able to mark and throw from inside the can, you would need to mark the lie directly behind the can and play from there. If your disc landed on a large obstacle of some kind, you;d take your lie on the ground directly behind the obstacle.

In this case, the marker would be placed as far back as necessary from the obstacle to properly mark the lie in a straight line to the basket.

Otherwise, the rule could be interpretted to mean that if a disc lands in a thick shrub, you could take relief behind the shrub. I don;t think this is the intention of this rule.
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cwolfe
Local Pro


Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 202

PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My interpretation would be that the play should have been from the ground, I don't believe you can throw from standing inside the tree, but that is just my take. If you were in a big tree with a huge trunk and your disc happend to be in the middle of the tree meaning that your mini should be place in the middle of the trunk then you would be able to bring it back on the line of flight to the nearest point where the trunk meets the ground. This would be done without a penalty unless two meter rule was in affect and the disc was of course above 2 meters.

I would have enjoyed seeing Eric throw from a tree though.
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staatsy



Joined: 14 Mar 2008
Posts: 348
Location: Poky

PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I sort of agree with all the responses. Austin - I guess it depends on the definition of "solid obstacle." Is everything inside the drip line of a tree considered "solid?" The definition of obstacle from the rule book is: Any feature of the course that may impede any aspect of play.

It's interesting to find several other rules that would seem to support taking the lie from behind the tree. For instance, 803.04 Stance, Subsequent to Teeing Off states:

D. A player must choose the stance that will result in the least movement of any part of any obstacle that is a permanent or integral part of the course.
E. If a large solid obstacle prevents a player from taking a legal stance within 30 centimeters directly behind the marker disc, the player shall take his or her stance immediately behind that obstacle on the line of play. The player must comply with all the provisions of 803.04 A other than being within 30 centimeters directly behind the marker disc.

Taking a stance from within the tree would result in much more movement of the permanent obstacle (tree) than taking a stance behind the tree.

The sections that talk about Obstacles and Relief seem to contradict what is stated in the Disc Above the Playing Surface sections.

803.05 Obstacles and Relief
A. Obstacles to a Stance or Throwing Motion:
Players must choose a stance which results in the least movement of any part of any obstacle except as allowed for casual obstacles by 803.05 C. No relief is granted from park equipment (such as signs, trash cans, picnic tables, etc.) as they are considered part of the course. Once a legal stance is taken, a player may not move an obstacle (or hold it back or bend it) in order to make room for a throwing motion. It is legal for a player?s throwing motion to make incidental movement of an obstacle.
B. Obstacles Between the Lie and Hole: A player may not move, alter, bend, break, or hold back any part of any obstacle, including casual obstacles, between the lie and the hole, with one exception: A player may move obstacles between the lie and the hole that became a factor during the round, such as spectators, players? equipment, open gates, or branches that fell during the round. Where it is not known if an obstacle has become a factor during a round, it shall not be moved. It is legal for a player?s throwing motion to make incidental movement of an obstacle.
C. Casual Obstacles:
A player may obtain relief only from the following obstacles:
casual water, loose leaves or debris, broken branches no longer connected to a tree, motor vehicles, harmful insects or animals, players? equipment, spectators, or any item or area specifically designated by the director before the round.
Obstacles may not be moved if any part of the obstacle is between the lie and the hole.

The first underlined portion seems to be in direct conflict with 803.08A. In Austins example, if your disc lands within a trash can, according to this, no relief is granted. But, according to 803.08A, if a trash can is considered a "solid obstacle," you can take relief directly behind it.

The second underlined portion seems to address the only things a player can take relief from. This seems to be in direct conflict with 803.08A, also.


So much for a cut-and-dry answer. I can imagine the Disc Above the Playing Surface section being written for deciduous trees (non-pines) whose branches generally begin above the playing surface. In that case, it's likely that a disc in the tree could be easily played from directly below. Notice that the relief suggested in this section is ONLY if the disc is above the playing surface. If your disc comes to rest on the ground within a tree, this section does not apply, and I would assume you are afforded no relief and have to play from within 30 cm of where you mark your disc.


Sorry for the length of the post. Hopefully you made it this far.

Eric
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staatsy



Joined: 14 Mar 2008
Posts: 348
Location: Poky

PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 7:45 pm    Post subject: WOO HOO! An Answer! Reply with quote

Apparently, this is covered on the Rules Q&A on PDGA.com

Essentially, Austin is correct.

http://www.pdga.com/faq/299#299n837


Unless the playing surface below the disc is physically inside the trunk of the tree, you're to mark the disc and play from inside the canopy of the tree.

Eric
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fiya79



Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 746
Location: Pokytella

PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

so you are playing #7 Sister city in a 400mph wind and you accidentally throw a shot into the valley below. you know about where it landed, but it seems like your situation is much worse than before in addition to being a long long walk. what are your options?

Can I just pick up and take par +4?
Can I declare the disc lost without looking?
Do a HAVE to go get it an play from my lie?
Is there another option?
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mooch



Joined: 06 Nov 2008
Posts: 328

PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

here is the answer to your question Lance

803.13 Holing Out
A. A player who fails to play any hole or fails to hole out on any hole during the round may be disqualified, at the discretion of the director, using the following guidelines:
(1) Holes missed due to late arrival may be scored and penalized according to section 804.02.
(2) Inadvertently failing to hole out (as determined by a majority of the group or an official) shall result in 2 penalty throws being added to the number of throws plus penalty throws already taken on the hole. The hole shall then be considered completed.
(3) Intentionally failing to hole out (emergency, injury, plane flight, etc.) constitutes withdrawal from competition. The player shall be withdrawn from competition and officially listed as "Did Not Finish" on the scorecard and in the event results.

B. Disc Entrapment Devices: In order to hole out, the thrower must release the disc and it must come to rest supported by the chains or within one of the entrapment sections. This includes a disc wedged into or hanging from the lower entrapment section but excludes a disc resting on top of, or hanging outside of, the upper entrapment section. The disc must also remain within the chains or entrapment sections until removed.

C. Object Targets: In order to hole out, the thrower must release the disc and it must strike
the marked target area on the object as specified by the director
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mooch



Joined: 06 Nov 2008
Posts: 328

PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

what do you guys think of this video of barry during a tournament
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fMJIef0YM
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fiya79



Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 746
Location: Pokytella

PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have seen that, pretty ridiculous. How could you not consider that OB?


An in response to my earlier post....what are my options if not picking up? ( picking up is clearly not an option, thanks mooch).

I really don't want to go hike for my disc.
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cowan521



Joined: 25 Jul 2009
Posts: 236

PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i dont know what the rules would have had me do. but when threw my nuke down past the basket for 14 off of 7 everyone in the group said just take a lost disc and i agreed. i probably was not going to find that in 3 minutes so i just reteed.
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cowan521



Joined: 25 Jul 2009
Posts: 236

PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think if a TD would have been there they would agree because think of the time it would take me to go all the way down there and then if i couldn't find it and have to walk all the way back up and retee.
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fiya79



Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 746
Location: Pokytella

PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure about declaring lost disc without looking but I think you can declare unplayable lie for any reason, any time.

This would be the call in my opinion.
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mooch



Joined: 06 Nov 2008
Posts: 328

PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

803.06 Unplayable Lie
A. A player may declare his or her lie to be an unplayable lie. The player is the sole judge as to whether the lie is unplayable. The unplayable lie may be relocated to a new lie that is: (1) No closer to the hole, on the line of play and within five meters of the unplayable lie; or (2) The previous lie as evidenced by the marker disc or, if the marker disc has been moved, from an approximate lie as agreed to by the majority of the group or an official. The original throw plus one penalty throw are counted in the player's score

from what I can see you can claim that your throw is unplayable and re-tee
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