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Stability
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cowan521



Joined: 25 Jul 2009
Posts: 236

PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 4:10 am    Post subject: Stability Reply with quote

so lance helped my game out more then he knows by telling me the more spin you put on a disc the more stable it makes it. that helped me considerably in the mid range area. however it seemed to not differ in my driver area. so i was talking to james about it earlier james basically said it was the opposite the more spin/snap the more understable the disc is. can some of the veterans give me some opinions on the topic? For my mid range game lances ideas hold very true but for my drivers i think it is use correct technique and rip and pick your favorite disc whether its understable or overstable.
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Wazowski08



Joined: 16 Nov 2007
Posts: 621

PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's the deal, the more spin you impart on the disc, the more it will do what it is designed to do. Basically, the more spin you put on it, the longer it will fly before it fades. If it's understable, it will turn a whole bunch before it fades. If it's overstable, it will fly controllably longer before it fades.

Think of a spinning top. The faster it spins, the longer it stays upright. Once the spin slows, it begins to tip over and wobble erractically. Here's the link to a good paper about this.

http://web.mit.edu/womens-ult/www/smite/frisbee_physics.pdf

Or here's a different link:

http://www.afda.com/skills/physics.htm
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staatsy



Joined: 14 Mar 2008
Posts: 348
Location: Poky

PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To back up Austin's answer, think about the drivers you use for forehand drives. In my experience, the "snap" with a forehand drive imparts quite a bit of spin on the disc, which is why I use massively overstable discs for forehand distance drives. If I tried to do the same thing with an understable disc, it would simply turn...and turn...and turn...and I'd be lost left on 16 or 18 at Bengal Smile

I believe the same holds true with mids. If I approach with a forehand, I want to use an overstable mid/putter. I don't use nearly the amount of arm strength as for a drive, but I still put a ton of spin on the disc to get it to follow an anhyser line to the basket (hopefully towards the basket...which is not always the case). In other words, I'm essentially imparting enough spin on the disc to keep it in a "turnover" forehand line for the entire flight to where I want it to go.

If you're turning over your drives using a mildly understable disc, you might want to either power down, or try a slightly more stable/overstable disc.


But, don't listen to me. I suck.

Eric
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fiya79



Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 746
Location: Pokytella

PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even though it feels like more spin-- forehands impart about 30% less spin then BH as measured on high seed cams. this is why you have to use a more stable disc to FH.

Don't have a high speed cam? go out on a windy day.

throwing ito a headwind basically reduces the amount of spin to speed ratio (more apparent speed, regular spin) what does a disc do? goes understable.

Throw in a tail wind (regular spin, low apparent speed) discs go overstable.


The reason you spin a disc to get it to hold an anhyzer line is that midranges will be 'stable' across a wider range of ratios. you aren't spinning it to make it understable and turn it over, you are throwing an anny line and making it hold the line (holding a line is 'stability'). imparting lots of spin will help hold a line on a mid longer. A putter even more so.

why does a disc fade at the end of the flight? because speed slows more than spin and the ratio is upset. a disc becomes overstable at low speed and high spin. A midrange will not fade as much because it has a greater range of stable ratios.

just sayin, throw in the wind and think about it.
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fiya79



Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 746
Location: Pokytella

PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

changing spin doesn't help much on drives because at your maximum arm speed (or near max) you really don't have time to change spin much. the ratio is fairly constant.


Go take a really understable mid range like a buzzz and flick it. a well spun disc will stand up, go flat and glide out a nice straight path. without spin it turns over and crashes.

when i throw a buzz on a hyzer I thy to spin the bejeebers out fo it so it doesn't turn over. that's also how I throw a roadrunner into a headwind. SPIN IT. you almost can't have too much spin.
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staatsy



Joined: 14 Mar 2008
Posts: 348
Location: Poky

PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gotcha. Reading the second of the links that Austin put up, that makes a bit more sense. It states:

A disc which needs a lot of spin to be stable at a given speed is called "understable", while a disc which needs little spin to be stable at a given speed is called "overstable". "Stable" generally refers to discs which are stable at a wide range of speeds for a given spin.

Looks like I was wrong. Like I said, don't listen to me - I suck and are dum.

Eric
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Wazowski08



Joined: 16 Nov 2007
Posts: 621

PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to the papers I've read, here's how I understand this. When a disc is thrown, the lift at the front is bigger than the lift at the back. This creates a force difference on the disc that becomes torque when it begins spinning.

Do to the right-hand rule in physics, the torque will force the disc to tip right when thrown RHBH. When the apparent speed of the disc increases, the difference in lift between the front and back increase. This increases the torque and thus makes a disc turn.

When the gyroscopic inertia (spin stability) increases, the disc can resist the increase in torque and remain stable. Inertia depends on mass and force. The lighter a disc is, the less gyroscopic inertia it will have when thrown. This means the torque will affect he disc much more, and it will be more understable.

People have written their doctoral dissertations on this subject. There are a lot of greek and latin letters involved in the formulas and equations used to prove these things. The bottom line, throw like you know how. If you can't flip a Destroyer, don't be sad. You can just throw a Wraith. Even though your manhood may be questioned, you will still be able to throw with the big boys.
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pole vaulter



Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 461

PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will agree with Cowan when i lose to him... since thats not going to happen. Out of my hand something spinning faster is going to turn over unless it is a firebird, xcal, boss, destroyer. This is why i don't throw katana, wraith, or anything else less stable then the hogs. I don't focus on my arm speed or muscle. I focus on the amount of spin i put on my discs and the angle of the release.

My opinion will not change on this matter. and i'm tired of intermediate players trying to tell me how i can improve my game. I don't need your help.
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cowan521



Joined: 25 Jul 2009
Posts: 236

PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah since i even told you to try something. i said thats what helped my short range back hand. yours is just as good as any and you know that i didnt even say that you should fix something. i was just saying why mine has gotten better and apparently physics agrees. james you must just be the exception! you definitely have more snap than climo who throws a star wraith which is not stable! and obviously i cant beat you and might never be able to. we' see after my 12 years of practice.
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cowan521



Joined: 25 Jul 2009
Posts: 236

PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah since i even told you to try something. i said thats what helped my short range back hand. yours is just as good as any and you know that i didnt even say that you should fix something. i was just saying why mine has gotten better and apparently physics agrees. james you must just be the exception! you definitely have more snap than climo who throws a star wraith which is not stable! and obviously i cant beat you and might never be able to. we' see after my 12 years of practice.
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cwolfe
Local Pro


Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 202

PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice double post.

I am on board with James. My thoughts were the same faster spinning more turnover. In regards to the disc being thrown a lot has to do with angle. So I can still throw a wraith hard, but I better have a little hyzer on it, same with orcs. Destroyers I try to release flat if not with a little anhyzer.

My two cents.
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fiya79



Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 746
Location: Pokytella

PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The great caleb has spoken!!! long live the king.

but seriously. anyone that can answer these questions 3 may pass.

what does a headwind do to the stability of a disc?
what does it do to the speed?
what does it do to the spin?

in conclusion...
so what makes a disc understable.....spin or speed at least in this case?

How about a tailwind?

when you change the amount of spin on a disc by what percentage do you think it changes? when you change the speed how much can you change it? when you spin a disc to make it understable are you really making it turn over or are you throwing an anny line and getting it to hold?

I'm standing by my assertion until someone comes up with actual evidence beyond "I feel like I'm spinning it more".

I might not be good at disc, but I have thought about it a lot.
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Wazowski08



Joined: 16 Nov 2007
Posts: 621

PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seriously, it's a plastic disc. Why is this so polarizing? Come to IF at League tonight, and we can settle all of this with field excersises.
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fiya79



Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 746
Location: Pokytella

PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And Austin, always the voice of reason, steps in to get things simmered down.
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staatsy



Joined: 14 Mar 2008
Posts: 348
Location: Poky

PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please remember, folks, public forum here.

I'm beginning to wonder about the stability of this thread. (get it!? STABILITY!!!!!)

In answer to Lane's questions: In a headwind, the speed of the disc is decreased, and holding spin constant, the speed-spin ratio is therefore decreased. Headwind makes discs less stable. In a tailwind, speed is increased (holding spin constant), speed-spin ratio is therefore increased. Disc acts more stable. So, this would suggest that speed is more important than spin.

But, I can take an overstable disc and throw it slowly with gobs and gobs of spin and make it act stable in its "high speed" portion of the flight. So, this would suggest that spin does affect the stability of the disc.

Maybe they are not mutually-exclusive. Maybe this discussion needs to include the high-speed stable and low-speed stable portions of flight. I used to be good a physics, but really don't have the time (or desire) to delve any further. So, until someone posts a proof of what makes the disc go further (and stops trying to prove a negative), I'm just going to go out, throw, and leave all the physics to physicians.

Eric
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