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skill levels
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feit11



Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 2:04 pm    Post subject: skill levels Reply with quote

Lets all remember the skill level definitions. Open is well under par, advanced is close to and under par, intermediate is par. Lets play far and give each other the best shot at winning. Sign up for the correct skill level it can only benefit you.
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mook



Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 798

PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not sure who you are "calling out" here, but in defense of the last tournament winners, here is my two cents. Mark finished 1 under par for the entire tournament which, on average, would be 53.5 per round. I think thats close enough to par (it is par if you round up) to be a Intermediate player. The last tournament I went to just yesterday the Intermediate winner would have cashed in Open. Now, thats a true sandbagger. But Mark wouldn't have even cashed in Advanced had he moved up. If he wins the series this year, he should move up next year.

The only difference between an Advanced Amateur player and an Open player is consistency, and to tell you the truth, the Open players were expected to shoot as well or better than Drew did. Drew had a great day and the Open Division did not. Also, Ross Park is such a short course that it tends to create the sandbagger cry from the croud undeservedly.

Now let me say this. Freeman Park in Idaho Falls is a much more challenging course with holes ranging from 200 feet to 600 feet and I will guarantee Mark will not finish under par and Drew will not shoot 7 under par. A longer and more challenging course will show our "true colors". So, let's see if old Mook knows what he is talking about when we get down to business this weekend.

It sounds like what really needs to happen is the creation of a "Novice" division for those who really aren't getting a shot in any division. Maybe that is something to look into for next year.
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pole vaulter



Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 461

PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. There has been more than one debate/ argument about this on the forum and i'm starting to think its really pretty pointless. No one is going to move up in the monthly events because they want to win there division in the series. The only person i know of off the top of my head that had the balls to move up divisions in the monthly series was Austin P. last year. It might not have worked out for him but i admire the fact that he tried.

2. I agree with Brandon that Ross Park evens the playing field a bit because its soooo short and that the Open players including myself did not play that well. The results should look more normal in IF.

3. I'm of the opinion that there is an element of fear in these (sandbaggers) or people that don't move up. Either they're afraid they will lose all their entry fee money in the next division up or they don't think they can shoot the same scores when playing with the guys in the next division up. Maybe they would get nervous playing in a group where they don't trounce everyone else.

4. I think the best way to avoid sandbaggers is play a lot and then play Open. There are NO sandbaggers in the Open Division because there can't be.

5. I'm not calling anyone out because i don't really care about sandbaggers. Like i said, they can't affect me. I think that these discussions are depressing. People that want to play COMPETITVE DISC GOLF should push themselves to play in the highest division they can and play to the best of their ability. Not be pressured to move up by others because they're baggin.
If you want to just play for fun thats a totally different story. Sometimes i can't decide if i should only play casual rounds or if i should take discing more seriously
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discgolfidaho



Joined: 02 Jun 2008
Posts: 34

PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 12:07 pm    Post subject: skill levels Reply with quote

How about using the PDGA skill levels instead of some nebulous "shoots under par" method. Ratings are empirical and can be compared across the spectrum of players and courses. By having an SSA (Scratch Scoring Average) on our courses, we can compare players' abilities in a fair and objective manner.

I'm on my way to Calif for a National Tour event, but when I return, I'd be glad to sit down with anyone interested and run the numbers on our courses and come up with a true assessment of what par should be and what SSA calculates out to be. Then, those players with PDGA ratings can just about figure dead on what division they should be playing in.

BTW. Open is a division that anyone can play in. It typically is a pro division, but an Am can also play there.

By standardizing the way we talk about divisioning and rating and handicapping, we will know that we are playing in the right divisions for our skill levels.

And by running the numbers as we design and install new courses (and on older courses) we get a true look at just what to expect when we play there.
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feit11



Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i am not calling out anyone in particular. Mook maybe your are right we need a novice level. My frustration comes from a lot of things: my own injury, always losing to the same people by big margins, and my lack of consistent play which is the difference between me and the "better" players. I just feel like i don't have a chance to win a tourny at any level that is offered.
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mook



Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 798

PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with alot of these comments. The PDGA doesn't fix sandbagging. The bottom line is that people are gonna play where they feel comfortable. Let's not complicate it anymore. These tournaments are designed for: 1. Increase competitive events in the area, 2. Create non stressed events for both the player's wallet and time and for the tournament director, and 3. Help increase disc golf skill level.

So, I would say this. You are not helping increase your skill level if you are playing with those beneath your skill level. This is something that you need to determine on your own.

The next thing I will say. Less than half of a tournament makes it in the money, so you should never expect to always be paid out. On the other hand, I don't want ANYONE feeling like they do not have a shot at all to cash at any event because of the divisions that are offered. Whats the point of playing if you cant win? Adam, your situation is completely different. You finished 2nd at Walcott, then you had an injury. How long till you will be able to throw right handed again?

I want to offer a Novice division, but if I do, it will only be to players who have started playing within 6 months of the start of the series in that calendar year and have not cashed in Intermediate in any of the prior SIMS tournamentts. If I do offer Novice, then reg fees will go up as well Novice $10, Int $15, Women $15, Advanced $20, and Open $25.
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feit11



Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as walcott goes i would call that a fluke. You saw my first round score. I have only been playing for 2 summers,counting this summer, so not yet a full year. I have to say that its one thing to go into a round, tourny or whatever and say to yourself i am going to cash out today and it is another thing to say i am going to finish in the middle of the pack.

As far as i go next years sims i will probably play up in the advanced division. i feel like just playing with the "better" players and talking with them will make me a better player. I also know that i won't cash out in that division but i am ok with that because i am going to be getting better as a player.

I guess i can't see why somebody would want to play at a level that they know that they are going to win all the time. that doesn't seem fair for everybody involved. i agree with your three reasons for the sims. but they are also a competition and i think it is safe to say that most of us disc golfers who play in the sims are competitive.

On another topic i was wondering if anybody had any pointers on how to throw a roller and get the most out of it?
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hongmindy



Joined: 19 May 2008
Posts: 34

PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:14 am    Post subject: nice Reply with quote

good to see the trash talking forum back up and running.

I have always wanted to see a fake lefty taking on a dude with two fingers! good stuff.

I think a novice category would be an appropriate division to let some newbies get a win under their belt early on. I took me about 4 years to get an intermediate division win. Heck, it took 3 years to crack the top half.

I don't thinkl PDGA division work for us in POKY because pocatello area would be left with 1 or 2 true open players, a handful of true advanced, a few more intermediates and a bunch of rec/novice (including me, I think).

and finally I moved up from int to advanced mid season in the series last year- if I remember right.
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hongmindy



Joined: 19 May 2008
Posts: 34

PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:15 am    Post subject: woops Reply with quote

forgot to log mindy out, sorry this is lance trash talking.
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drewpy101



Joined: 20 Mar 2008
Posts: 29

PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's make this very clear ....no need to dance around the issue here...mark is is made of sand.

Did you guys know he throws really light discs...ya seriously like 146 to 160...hmmm I have to check the rules again but I think that might be cheating.

Don't hate the messanger here ...I'm just saying what we are all thinking.
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mook



Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 798

PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, after this post I am not commenting anymore about sandbagging. I am sick of talking about it. My personal opinion is that "sandbagger" is a word someone came up with long ago to justify that they either had a bad tournament or they just aren't good enough yet. How many people do we have to call a sandbagger before we are satisfied? NOT EVERYONE CASHES! In fact, most don't cash. I can't reasonably see anybody in any of the SIMS events being a legitimate sandbagger. I have gone back and looked at ALL the scores. My recommendation to anyone who feels they can't HAVE FUN (notice I didn't say "compete") at a tournament level because they didn't cash would be to go out and practice. Ross Park League, Bengal Ridge League, and Idaho Falls League are all handicapped so that you have a chance to win no matter what your skill level is. These are great places to play with higher skilled players and better your skills.

I am not discouraging anyone from coming to the tournaments. It's only $10 to play! You lose that just driving out to a casual round of golf. Come out and ENJOY the experience. If you lose $10 because you didn't cash, I am sorry. Go home, get out and play, borrow one of my baskets and practice putting in your back yard, borrow one the clubs videos and learn new techniques, or get online and learn new stuff. Get better! Thats what you want to do anyway, isn't it?
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cwolfe
Local Pro


Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 202

PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just go pro and nobody can say anything.
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Wazowski08



Joined: 16 Nov 2007
Posts: 621

PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look, all of us talk trash at tourneys about sandbaggers and generally it is aimed at a few select folks. But that is only because they constantly beat us pretty badly. But harassment is 30% of the disc golf tournament. It is just how we enjoy ourselves. If you are genuinely upset because you think someone is a sandbagger, I've got a surefire solution for you to feel better immediately. Beat them.

The only people I listen to on this issue are players in Open. Of course people in your division and lower are going to call you a bagger. You just beat them. Players in a division sbove yours have no reason to call you a sandbagger unless you're actually being one.

If you need to cash out to fell better about your abilities, fine. Play wherever you can win the most. For the rest of us who simply enjoy playing the game with friends, we'll play where guys with the same skill level are. They're the most fun anyway.

Austin
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fiya79



Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 746
Location: Pokytella

PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:22 pm    Post subject: wow Reply with quote

I wanted to add that I really don't think drew is bagging in advanced in local tournaments or intermediate in big PDGA events. although he is getting pretty freaking good...next year maybe. P.S. strong showing at riverpark all.

judging total skill from ross park scores is tough. you can have good control of mids (drew) and have the course hard wired (mark). but not have the distance to hang on a big-boys course (me). Go play with caleb or james at bengal. they drive crazy far AND accurate, every time. advanced players can drive far and occasionally accurately, intermediate players can drive sort of far and not really accurately. then there's putting........

One flukish good round (or even two) can make a guy look better than he really is- but that is what it takes to win a tournament, playing above your normal skill level. Look at the old lake walcott results and you can see me and kerry struggling for a long long time. Even in 07 I played the back 9 something like 7 under but couldn't hold it together and followed it up with a string of 5's. I seemed advanced for a few holes. but no.

I will likely play advanced from now on at PDGA to get better. But I will not likely move up to open in locals until I learn to putt.

I think everyone is moving up the ranks appropriately so far, but that bottom rung doesn't exist yet on the tournament scale locally because of a relatively small player base.
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novosel14



Joined: 29 Apr 2008
Posts: 258
Location: Pocatello ID

PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

drewpy101 said it best! Damn I go out of town for a few days and I almost miss all the action!
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