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Disc Weights

 
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staatsy



Joined: 14 Mar 2008
Posts: 348
Location: Poky

PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:56 pm    Post subject: Disc Weights Reply with quote

So I've recently figured out some of the disc ratings and I think I know some of the terminology (hyzer, anhyzer, etc...). What I can't find is any info on disc weight vs. distance. Let's make things easy and just look at drivers. What does weight to do flight characteristics? Is weight just personal preference? Does the weight of a disc effect how it performs in windy vs calm situations?

Any insight is appreciated.

Eric
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ScottW



Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 148
Location: Spokane Valley, WA

PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Weight mostly affects stability. Lighter weight discs are more understable, for example if you have a 175g DX Wraith it will be mildly undertsable when thrown hard, that's just the way they are. If you throw a 150g DX Wraith it will be really understable (RHBH) and be more likely to go right and stay right. Light weight discs flip (anhyzer) even more into a headwind as well. So, heavy discs will be more stable to overstable and will fight a headwind better.
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fiya79



Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 746
Location: Pokytella

PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:13 pm    Post subject: disc weights Reply with quote

disclaimer: all of these statememnts are generalized, some exceptions may occur.

heavier weights will tend to be more overstable (more fade, less "turn") they will go further into the wind (mass/inertia helps) most golfers consider heavier weights more accurate.

lighter weights will be less stable and glide more (less fade and more turn) the go further in a tail wind and cross winds (they 'float?' or glide better). used by beginners/ downwind shots and for maXimum distance contests where direction has no meaning.

let's look at a wraith- to simplify we'll say I own all the same plastic types (DX) and all discs are new. Also, let's also say no wind for now-
weight behavior
175g- my max distance- 340', fairly consistent, good hyzer line
165g- max d: 360-400' somewhat cosistent, a tight 'flip' line, straight
150g- distance 300 with no effort, 400+ max. big anhzyer or flip line, no control at max distances.

(flip means a hyzer release that is going fast enough to turn flat or anhyzer after release. it may or may not come back to fade hyzer.)

I tend to throw 167-170 weights for a good compromise. not awesome into a headwind, but I don't have the power to huck 175 way out there all the time.

Most pros are max weight all the time, they have the power to huck heavy things very far and love the accuracy. I need the distance and don't have the accuracy either way.


summary: lighter weights have greater 'potential' distance but sacrifice accuracy and suck in headwinds.

varying weights has a lot to do with flight characteristics. A 150 destroyer has a similar flight path tp a 175 roadrunner.
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fiya79



Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 746
Location: Pokytella

PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:25 pm    Post subject: spin vs speed vs turn Reply with quote

what is the relationship here? I mostly wonder about spin. I though more spin would turn a disc over more. I though turn was a high spin to speed ratio. I read something on PDGA the other day that contradicted that. Somebody clear this up does "too much" spin=turn or does speed = turn ?
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ThievingMagpie



Joined: 07 Jan 2008
Posts: 127

PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:09 pm    Post subject: Disc Weights Reply with quote

Another disc/physics/technique related question...
I can consistently throw my T-bird about as far as my Wraith. Intuitively, faster=farther. Anyone have an explanation of the interaction of technique/disc speed?

ps. I'm still interested in Lance's question about spin vs. speed as well if anyone knows. I'm with spin.
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staatsy



Joined: 14 Mar 2008
Posts: 348
Location: Poky

PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:56 am    Post subject: spin Reply with quote

Okay, I'm going to try to answer the spin question. From my days playing ultimate, more spin = more stability. In other words, the more spin you put on the disc, the more likely it is to go where you intended. It also seems that more spin helped combat wind. Of course, this is in reference to an ultimate disc, which is far more forgiving than golf discs - but I think some of the throwing aspects carry over.

My 2 cents.
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fiya79



Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 746
Location: Pokytella

PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:48 am    Post subject: wraith Vs teebird Reply with quote

OK I'll try Casey's. It will make me sound like a jerk though.
disc speed and stability ratings are relative to each other and power. I read that in order to have the wraith preform for you you needed to throw well over 300 feet. if you don't throw that far the flight characteristics of faster discs don't really work for you. a lot of your power is wasted in a big hyzer fade.

In order to throw a 10,11....speed disc you need to have a certain amount of power or the speed difference is academic.

I can throw a wraith farther than a destroyer because I don't have the power to make the destroyer do what it was designed to do.

I am using the term 'power' here interchangably with technique and strength combined. good technique can make up for lower power up to a point to make discs perform.
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fiya79



Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 746
Location: Pokytella

PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:24 am    Post subject: ultimate firz Reply with quote

I'm not sure ultimate experience is very relevant int his case. I used to play a lot too, but I cannot throw an ult disc very far anymore. I tend to spin the heck out of it and it just turns right, and bores a hole in the ground or rolls.
the discs are so different. I'm just not sure.
I feel like with my mids if I'm trying to approach the basket from well inside their max range if I spin the disc a little more it tends not to fade out as much.

And forehands tend to spin more rather than be faster throws and they turn over notoriously, so I vote for spin too.

And according to some PDGA posts they believ a good drive spins at 2800 rpms so I'm not sure how much you can change that. Maybe I just feel like I'm playing spin to win.

But maybe both things can turn a disc over.
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Allin



Joined: 18 Apr 2008
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:49 pm    Post subject: Newtons laws of motion Reply with quote

I firmly believe the weight of a disc effects how far it flys. Due to a three laws we have all heard of. Newtons laws of motion

I. Every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that state of motion unless an external force is applied to it.

II. The relationship between an object's mass m, its acceleration a, and the applied force F is F = ma. Acceleration and force are vectors (as indicated by their symbols being displayed in slant bold font); in this law the direction of the force vector is the same as the direction of the acceleration vector.

III. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

I used to throw high 160's now im down into the 150's and have noticed at least 50-100 feet on every drive. Im a new member and cant wait to play with ya'll on wednesday night.
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pole vaulter



Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 461

PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Pocatello I find that usually WIND (external force) is acting against the motion of my disc so i throw heavier discs 174 or 175 if i can get my hands on it. I see a lot of peoples light weight discs get carried off by the wind in the wrong direction. Thats just my opinion and you can take it or leave it. All i know is i'm a lot better at Disc Golf then i ever was at physics.
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ThievingMagpie



Joined: 07 Jan 2008
Posts: 127

PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:53 pm    Post subject: disc weights Reply with quote

II. The relationship between an object's mass m, its acceleration a, and the applied force F is F = ma. Acceleration and force are vectors (as indicated by their symbols being displayed in slant bold font); in this law the direction of the force vector is the same as the direction of the acceleration vector.

So... This might be why I'm no good at physics, but I'll take a shot anyway.

Lets assume you throw 2 discs (a 175 and a 150) with the same acceleration, say a=10. Then wouldn't it follow that according to your equation the F would be greater with the 175 disc?

F=175x10; F=1750
F=150x10; F=1500


OR is the 'a' the variable in question, you throw the same two discs with F=10

10=175xa; a=0.05714285714285...
10=150xa; a=0.06666666666666...

However, even if you get more acceleration with the 150 disc it doesn't have as much mass to fight against the friction of air, so wouldn't it lose speed faster?

I think I read somewhere that the discs that hold distance records are typically stable to understable and around 168 (like an discraft XS?)
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fiya79



Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 746
Location: Pokytella

PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:35 pm    Post subject: disc physics Reply with quote

I think exact disc physics are out of my reach and everyone has made some good points. let me turn casey's equations around.
let's say my arm is capable of producing a certain amount of force. 2000 units. if I apply that force to 2 different weight discs the acceleration is not equal.

acceleration= force/mass

a=2000/175= 11.4

a=2000/150= 13.3

so the lighter disc is moving faster upon release. It is true that it has less mass to continue moving forward through the air and will decelerate faster, in theory but there are a lot more forces at work than in projectile physics (throwing rocks). there is glide (lift) and wind from the sides, spin and a host of other things.
a lighter disc will continue to stay in the air after it loses a lot of speed because less lift it required to hold it up. a heavier disc will drop at a higher speed and lose some potential distance. also wind will change the flight of the heavy disc less. normally this is a good thing (yeah accuracy). but sometimes wind is helpful and it will help a light disc more than a heavy disc. so I still believe a lighter disc has the greatest potential to go a large distance, though without the control needed for a golf shot.

in distance competitors generally reach for lighter discs and play the wind big time. but they have a limited number of throws to hit their line and will therefore not go all the way down to 150g discs. they compromise and throw 160's instead for a bit of control.

I think
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staatsy



Joined: 14 Mar 2008
Posts: 348
Location: Poky

PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:38 pm    Post subject: Link with explanations Reply with quote

Found a link with some seemingly good explanations. Can't verify the validity, though.

http://www.afda.com/skills/physics.htm

Granted, this is from an Australian ultimate web page, it does specifically address golf discs in a few places. It looks like I was right about spin on ultimate discs and Lance was right about spin on golf discs.

With the F=ma discussion - this probably over-simplifies the explanation. Plus, isn't this an instantaneous measure?
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fiya79



Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 746
Location: Pokytella

PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 6:21 pm    Post subject: spin and speed Reply with quote

I was thinking abou this at creekside. the was mega wind. throwing into a headwind should essentially 'simulate' throwing faster and spinning less (high speed to spin ratio) this turns discs over. I also threw some high spin to speed shots the other day, they turned over. (this was all based on feel, no real data) apparently the ratio has to be right. both spin and speed can turn over a golf disc.
the range is quite sensitive for golfing compared to a catch disc. it is really hard to over spin an ultimate disc.
it is kind of hard to over spin a golf disc because if you have the power to spin it really fast you are probably also throwing fairly fast and those two work themselves out.

looking at a really stable disc (excal, firebird, max) the have somewhat blunt rims and a lot of mass is out at the edge meaning more force is required to accelerate that mass (spin the disc a lot). so the have less spin relative to speed and therefore fly OVER stable.

understable discs (roadrunner, sidewinder) have relatively convex rims putting more mass lsightly further in. they should spin faster, easier and therefore turn over easier.

this has been interesting to think about and should help my game, though probably not.


It kind of comes full circle to casey's question about teebird/wraith speed. those discs are rated for stability relative to a given speed. the wraith has about the same stability rating, but needs massive speed to fly stable (about 350' worth) the teebird is stable for a speed range of about 275-325' in my experience. If you can;t get the wraith to flip up and fly stabel it isn't going to preform.
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